SpokenWeb Podcast

My name is Katherine McLeod, and each month I’ll be bringing you different stories of Canadian literary history and our contemporary responses to it created by scholars, poets, students, and artists from across Canada. For our first episode of this season, we’re bringing you sound work by someone who has been instrumental to The SpokenWeb Podcast as a team member: Judith Burr. Judith Burr is our former supervising producer and project manager, and she’s now off to embark on a PhD in geography at UBC. During her work on our podcast, she was also hard at work on a podcast that she called, “Listening to Fire Knowledges in and around the Okanagan Valley.” That podcast was her master’s thesis project in the Digital Arts & Humanities theme of the Interdisciplinary Graduate Studies program at the University of British Columbia Okanagan. You heard Judith Burr’s voice on the episode “Talking Transcription: Accessibility, Collaboration, Creativity” that I co-produced with Kelly Cubbon.

We interviewed Judith back in February 2022, when she was in the early stages of conducting oral histories for her podcast. At that point, she had so many sounds – clips from news reports of the Okanagan wildfires – long conversations with wildfire experts – and was planning to speak with poet Sharon Thesen about how the environment finds its way into the sound of her writing. Sharon Thesen is a poet who the UBCO Amp Lab, as part of SpokenWeb, has previously featured in a collective reading of her work. Hearing Thesen on this podcast feels like a bringing together of Judith’s work her master’s thesis and on The SpokenWeb Podcast. Along with Thesen, you’ll hear from foresters Daryl Spencer, Dave Gill, and Gord Pratt; UBCO Living with Wildfire project lead Mathieu Bourbonnais; forest technologist Jeff Eustache; and FireSmart program lead Kelsey Winter. The SpokenWeb Podcast starts season with Judith’s podcast because it is a timely call to reflect on how we listen and live within our complex and challenging ecosystems. [Music Interlude]

My name is Sharon Thesen. I’m Professor Emeritus of Creative Writing at UBC’s Okanagan campus. I’ve been a writer, a poet, a critic, and an editor for many decades in the Canadian, BC, and Cascadian worlds – Cascadia being the bioregion that encompasses most of BC, including the Okanagan and the coast and Washington State and Oregon and part of Northern California. It’s an extremely unstable region – geologically – prone to fire, tsunami, earthquake, volcano, flood, avalanche. It’s a landscape that’s very vibrant, very beautiful, but also dangerous. It creates challenges for sure. And in this challenging beautiful bioregion, I’ve been living for most of my life.

Living in Vancouver, I was always aware, as a writer, of being in a different zone from the rest of Canada. It seemed that we writers – a lot of us poets in Vancouver – had deeper aesthetic and poetic connections with our counterparts in the States. But the quote-unquote “rest of Canada” was not involved in these poetics. There was always an east-west stretch. There was a sense of not belonging, really, to either of them. Okay, so then what do you belong to? So here is this very prominent geography and landscape. [Music Ends]

But I always had a soft spot for the Interior. I spent probably about 10 years of my young life, living in the Kamloops and Vernon areas, and always wanted to come back. I appreciated the spectacular landscape on the coast, but my body, my heart, was here. So, when we started coming back here, I would feel at home. Because I could smell it. I could recognize the weeds –when you’re a little kid, you’re closer to the ground and you’re seeing the weeds and all that small stuff. It’s all about those weeds, right? And it still is. [Start Music] It still is the place of my heart, and my deepest being is this landscape.

Can I read this little paragraph?

Do you remember anyone talking about fire danger before the, um, fire?

So, my name is Daryl Spencer. I’ve been a registered professional forester since 1985, so it’s been a few years. I’ve done fire management and planning amongst other things in the Okanagan Valley for the past 20 years. My current role – I work for the government. I work with the Forest Practices Board, which is an environmental watchdog for the Province. We look at various things that fall under the Forest and Range Practices Act and the Wildfire Act.

Certainly there was fires, but not as predominant as say, 2003 was like a fulcrum kind of point where fire seemed to take off for me anyway. I think that fire, like I said earlier, was a launching point or staging point for more awareness with municipalities, the parks, and the government and served as a bit of a wake-up call for, say the city of Kelowna, BC Parks, and the Ministry of Forests. And it raised awareness of the importance of managing interface fuels and so forth. So that was a key thing there. And I mentioned all those homes were burned down. It was a situation where Okanagan Mountain Park which was back then a Class A park – I think it still is – and Class A parks are left unto themselves to evolve ecologically. So there’s huge mats of pine needles on the forest floor up to two or three feet thick and gathers in areas. So a lightning strike in that fuel – which is readily burnable and burns quite rapidly – started that fire and all these homes were being developed adjacent to this park without the thought of fuel management. So that resulted in a lot of these homes burning up. So that was kind of a wake-up call for city planners and parks and so forth to start setting up interface and buffer areas and so forth to protect homes. [Music ends]

We heard them on it, we could hear the helicopters on the fire. We thought that they’d bring it under control, but within a couple days, we realized it was much more than that. It wasn’t long before people were starting to crowd on the streets around us, and higher up on the hill behind us, just looking at this thing. A few days later we were told to leave.

That was the way I was initiated to fire in the Okanagan, and that in itself changed the way I thought about fire [Music Ends] – from what I learned to, you know, on the ground what I’ve been hearing from people that that live here, rather than what I had learned in school. From there, we had the Filmon Report, and we had a lot of other, I guess for the most part, high-level reports that came out about fire. And that maybe we’ve been taking the wrong approach with fire for about 100 years. [Music Begins]

My name’s Jeff Eustache, I’m a registered Forest technologist. I’m from the Simpcw First Nation just north of Kamloops, but I live and reside on the Okanagan Indian Band lands. And I work as the emergency program manager for IPO West, Natural Resources Canada.

So, you can see the need for higher-level, landscape-level treatments. You can do the fuel reduction outside at the doorstep there, but once it starts rolling like it did, it takes a lot more than a 50, 100 metre fuel treatment to stop that. I think it’s going to require a lot more aggressive fuel reduction treatments. I know my wife’s family members, they actively go out – and it’s really about, I would say, not even five kilometers from here – they would actually go out every spring and do some burning outside of their property. I’m fairly sure that resulted in a few of their structures being saved, because it didn’t have that understory that could have ignited and swept through there. I was pretty surprised there was not a lot more losses along the Valley here where it came down. It hit pretty hard, but I’m fairly sure that the burning practices of that family really helped. Because they would go in the forest, it wasn’t just grass burning, and they’d go up the hillside and that really, I think, resulted in some protective measures for them. You need to try to increase that more and more. Otherwise, like I said, once it starts rolling that quickly, it’s pretty hard to stop. [Music Changes] You actually can’t stop it.

I was actually on the Peachland fire, back in 2012, I believe. I remember being in Kamloops that day, and it was one of those hot, early September days where, you know what, you’re starting to think you’re past the fire season in many ways. But, it was windy, super windy. I actually remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who was pretty active with BC Wildfire, who said, ‘this isn’t a good day. If we get a start, it’s going to be a problem somewhere.’ Right? And, sure enough, later that weekend, Peachland was on evacuation. It started up, I believe, in the top end on the Coq [Coquihalla Highway] and it ripped down through the community. [Music Begins]

It’s hard to predict where it will happen. My philosophy is reduce the fuels where there’s likelihood of starts. Where’s that fire behavior going, and what’s the typical weather going to move it towards – and that’s where we need to do it.

One of the balancing acts of some of the projects that we have funded is the importance of the irrigation districts and the watershed groups in and around the Okanagan. We’ve funded some planning and some treatments that either we have done or have been picked up by the wildfire risk reduction program by the Province, to recognize how important the watersheds are – not only for the public but your agricultural industry in the Okanagan.

I am so excited and happy to see that the importance of wildfire risk reduction is getting out in the public eye. Because it can be forgotten so quickly. I saw that in my career as a fuels management specialist – if we didn’t have a fire last year, nobody cared. All I care about is I’m going to go canoeing and camping have a campfire. And, all of a sudden, we get smoked out. It’s a really lousy summer. You know, in Kamloops, I think in Kelowna it was the same there: we got robbed of a summer. In so many different ways. Either we knew somebody who was impacted from an evacuation, or, in my household, people had trouble breathing. It was just one of those things. So, you know what, I think this is critical that we’re getting this out to the public eye, and I think it’s important to all of us who live near, in, around the wildfire-urban interface, those who recreate in BC’s forests: we all have a role in reducing the starts and supporting the activities that our leaders actually want to get done to reduce the likelihood of fire in your neighborhood. That’s the key thing for me. [Music Changes]

The one I think of the most, Smith Creek, fire in the Okanagan, I was there with an incident management team. We were pretty sure we’re going to lose neighborhoods. It’s scary. It’s a scary place to fight fire because it’s so populated, right, and the fuel type there is not an easy one to stop when it’s hot and dry and windy, right?

Kelowna is really involved in the program. They have the Home Partners program there, which is detailed mitigation assessment of individual homes. The homeowners are provided a report, and then they are able to go do those mitigation recommendations on their property, and then they get a certificate at the end that says you’re a FireSmart property that they can then use for their insurance. So Kelowna is really involved. I can’t list all of them. But there’s a ton of great areas in the Okanagan that have really adopted the program, and I think that’s, like you were saying earlier, that’s because of living in the Okanagan. They understand it’s something that’s always going to be there, right? [Music ends]

There’s a project that we started last year through the BC FireSmart committee and it’s doing research in the wildland-urban interface on structure ignition. So, basically, getting more data on why some structures ignite and why some don’t. So when a wildfire moves through a community, why are there those – you see the pictures, especially more out of the US, but even in Lytton – of that one house on that row that’s still standing, and the others that are gone. And I went to a couple fires this summer in the Okanagan with the research team, and it was crazy to see the little things. Like – maintained green grass. So, someone who just mowed their grass, you know, might make a huge difference, might be the reason why that house was still there and the one beside it was gone. Or things like, all their lawn furniture was pulled away off their deck, or their deck was sheathed in. And so, to me, being there and actually seeing those structures – the one that’s just ash and all you can see is bricks that were there on the chimney stack and everything else is gone – next to the one that is still there. That’s some pretty powerful stuff. I was saying to the researchers, you’re coming home and you’re walking down your driveway, and you have this idea of what’s going to be at the end of your driveway. It would be so I think reassuring to a member of the public – and we talked to a few of them – that were like, ‘I did everything I could like. When I left that house, when I was told to evacuate, it was FireSmart to the best of my abilities.’ Like, ‘I was confident leaving that house that I had given it the best chance I had of coming back to it.’ Versus someone who is thinking ‘Oh man, the propane tank was right up against the house’ or, you know, those little changes. Or ‘the windows were open’. I think that was pretty powerful for me this summer, just seeing what people were going to end up coming home to right. [Music Begins] And what we can do as a program to encourage them to make those changes ahead of time, right? When they still have time to do it.